Detonation? 4.0 ZJ

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NitroTy

Guest
I'm posting in regards to JeepJen's ZJ. Ever since we put 31's on it, we've been getting bad detonation when power is required. At least I think that's what it is. Those who saw us at Twist Off may have noticed during the block climb event. It's a nasty knock that is accompanied by oil smoke. It happens when trying to climb hills in high range, climb over rocks, etc. We've been running 89 octane as it seems to run smoother with it than 87. The temp gauge doesn't seem to budge much...
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R

Root Moose

Guest
On a 4.0 Jeep I would not replace the mechanical fan with an electric.

Detonation is not caused by over heating. There is something else going on in the system.

How many kms on the Jeep?

What is the compression like?

Are the plugs correct? New(ish)?

Is the timing correct?

If you are getting blue/black smoke when under load that sounds expensive to me but I will defer to those here with more experience troubleshooting these kinds of problems.
 
N

NitroTy

Guest
It has 240,000km. The compression was tested when we got it, around 230,000km. From cylinder 1 - 6 (in PSI): 143, 139, 142, 151, 155, 146. We changed plugs, wires and distributor very recently. I'm not sure that we got the correct plugs, she asked at the counter at Benson's what ones to get. It ran great when we changed those items, but after some detonation it is running really rough again. We're going to pull the plugs soon and check them out.
 
N

NitroTy

Guest
Oh, and there is no blow-by showing on the air filter. PCV valve is new since we got it as well.
 
D

Dirk

Guest
Pinging or detonation is most often caused by timing being too advanced.
Extreme overhaeting can have similar effects, but it would have to be extreme. probably not the case here.
Since you say that higher octane reduces or elimantes thie detonation, I would think timing is the cause. Get a timing light and check it.
My previous "tow truck" would run on 87 octane when empty, but when I towed it would require better fuel. This was with a 450hp 460cid with 9:1 compression.
Your issue seems similar as it does it only when it has to work hard.
What brand of fuel do you normally use. The cheap stuff may not even be 87, try a better brand.
 
J

JeepJen

Guest
I use Esso. And in my opinion I am always getting the detonation at idle. Once I give it some gas and get going it seems fine. But when I first start the Jeep and when I'm stoped at lights it seems very rough. When we changed the plugs and wires it was great. It got rough again after a trail run. Once I pull my plugs we'll have a better idea but I really think the plugs are the issue. Then again I have no idea what I'm talking about so maybe ignore me. That's why Ty posted the question. :)
 
R

Root Moose

Guest
Check your timing like Dirk suggested.

I think this is culprit.
 
N

NitroTy

Guest
Thanks guys, will do. We don't use cheap gas, usually Esso or Sunoco. Given that it ran smooth for a while, we couldn't have screwed up the plug wires. Is it at all possible to screw up the timing when we changed the cap and rotor? They're both keyed to only go on in the right position, if I remember correctly.
 
K

kbrousseau

Guest
If it started after a trail run, perhaps something got shaken loose. Check that all the wires are on the plugs good and tight. Also check that the dist. hold down bolt is tight and that the dist is moving on you. I sold a dist to a local guy in the spring cause the bushings on his dist shaft were wore out so badly that the timing was jumping all over the place. That is the only time I had heard of that happening though so it may have just been a one time issue.
 

chunkytrunks

That's MR.EX Pres to you!
Club Member
Also if your timing turns out being off you will want to check your plugs again. If your run ritch you can actually ruin a brand new set of plugs so at least check them.
 

Mitko

The G-Spot
Club Member
Abnormal combustion (Detonation)

When unburned fuel/air mixture beyond the boundary of the flame front is subjected to a combination of heat, pressure for a certain duration (beyond the delay period of the fuel used), detonation may occur. Detonation is characterized by an instantaneous, explosive ignition of at least one pocket of fuel/air mixture outside of the flame front. A local shockwave is created around each pocket and the cylinder pressure may rise sharply beyond its design limits. If detonation is allowed to persist under extreme conditions or over many engine cycles, engine parts can be damaged or destroyed. The simplest deleterious effects are typically particle wear caused by moderate knocking, which may further ensue through the engine's oil system and cause wear on other parts before being trapped by the oil filter. Severe knocking can lead to catastrophic failure in the form of physical holes punched through the piston or head, either of which depressurizes the affected cyclinder and introduces large metal fragments, fuel, and combustion products into the oil system.

Detonation can be prevented by the use of a fuel with high octane rating, which increases the combustion temperature of the fuel and reduces the proclivity to detonate; enriching the fuel/air ratio, which adds extra fuel to the mixture and increases the cooling effect when the fuel vaporizes in the cylinder; reducing peak cylinder pressure by increasing the engine revolutions (e.g., shifting to a lower gear); decreasing the manifold pressure by reducing the throttle opening; or reducing the load on the engine. Because pressure and temperature are strongly linked, knock can also be attenuated by controlling peak combustion chamber temperatures at the engineering level by compression ratio reduction, exhaust gas recirculation, appropriate calibration of the engine's ignition timing schedule, and careful design of the engine's combustion chambers and cooling system. As an aftermarket solution, a water injection system can be employed to reduce combustion chamber peak temperatures and thus suppress detonation.

Knocking is unavoidable to a greater or lesser extent in diesel engines, where fuel is injected into highly compressed air towards the end of the compression stroke. There is a short lag between the fuel being injected and combustion starting. By this time there is already a quantity of fuel in the combustion chamber which will ignite first in areas of greater oxygen density prior to the combustion of the complete charge. This sudden increase in pressure and temperature causes the distinctive diesel 'knock' or 'clatter', some of which must be allowed for in the engine design. Careful design of the injector pump, fuel injector, combustion chamber, piston crown and cylinder head can reduce knocking greatly, and modern engines using electronic common rail injection have very low levels of knock. Engines using indirect injection generally have lower levels of knock than direct injection engine, due to the greater dispersal of oxygen in the combustion chamber and lower injection pressures providing a more complete mixing of fuel and air.

An unconventional engine that makes use of detonation to improve efficiency and decrease pollutants is the Bourke engine.
Check:
Spark plugs, wires, cap and rotor;
fuel filter;
knock sensor (if there is a such) or the adwance/retard mechanism in the distributor;
scan the engine
 

Buster

Well-known member
Club Member
Check for vacum leaks. Lean mixture and high engine loads may cause pre-ignition. Especially at low rpm/high manifold vacum conditions.
 
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