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231/Dana 300 Doubler Build
- Thread starter 2Greys
- Start date
Looks good!
Deviation from the plan:
Well I guess I can get started on doing the swap, or very shortly. The jeep is now stuck in the driveway as I basically have found that at least 5 of the body mounts are completely pooched. On the driver side the 3 under the front seat and the furthest back spin, I haven't even looked at the passenger side. I am aware of the Classic Enterprises torquebox replacements but I think I can fab up my own patches and spending $625 US right now for both sides is not happening.
What prompted this was that I had a hole develop in the torque boxes right behind the front ones on both sides (well a crack on drivers but a golf ball sized hole on passenger) and I decided to see if I can undo the bolts. By the time it started to rain the drivers side was cut open over the front two.
Basically the way the torque boxes are setup is a bracket nestled inside the box with a nutsert sitting on top. The actual spots where the brackets sit look ok (at least the front two at least), it is just the crack which is about an inch or so behind. For the nuts I am going to take a piece of 16g steel and weld the nut on and then weld that using some rosette welds to the brackets. For the cracks I will lay some steel on the inside to strengthen up the area around and then patch on top of that. That should strengthen it up. From what it looks like there isn't really any issues further back the channels but I guess that remains to be seen.
Thoughts/suggestions?
Well I guess I can get started on doing the swap, or very shortly. The jeep is now stuck in the driveway as I basically have found that at least 5 of the body mounts are completely pooched. On the driver side the 3 under the front seat and the furthest back spin, I haven't even looked at the passenger side. I am aware of the Classic Enterprises torquebox replacements but I think I can fab up my own patches and spending $625 US right now for both sides is not happening.
What prompted this was that I had a hole develop in the torque boxes right behind the front ones on both sides (well a crack on drivers but a golf ball sized hole on passenger) and I decided to see if I can undo the bolts. By the time it started to rain the drivers side was cut open over the front two.
Basically the way the torque boxes are setup is a bracket nestled inside the box with a nutsert sitting on top. The actual spots where the brackets sit look ok (at least the front two at least), it is just the crack which is about an inch or so behind. For the nuts I am going to take a piece of 16g steel and weld the nut on and then weld that using some rosette welds to the brackets. For the cracks I will lay some steel on the inside to strengthen up the area around and then patch on top of that. That should strengthen it up. From what it looks like there isn't really any issues further back the channels but I guess that remains to be seen.
Thoughts/suggestions?
That would be a lot more work especially in a driveway, Probably could have gone another year or two if I wanted to push it off before I really had to fix it.
I patched the body mounts over the last weekend and the weekend before. If anyone is in this situation, I strongly recommend ordering the Classic Enterprise replacements. They are a pretty penny but replacing the old ones with the new ones is as simple as:
- Remove seats and B pillar cage bolts
- Remove 2 fender bolts at the bottom at the tub
- remove body mount bolts on one side and jack up that side
- cut the small weld locations that the old torque box is attached
- bolt the new torque box using the fender bolts and the cage
- weld in same spots
- put back together
May be the same cost as a used tub but a hell of a lot less work
After seeing Marek's buggy it got me motivated today to jump on the next portion so I got both front and rear drive shaft pulled and the Transfer Case Skid
At Crag during SF my compressor for my lockers would kick in intermittently so I also popped open the diff (fluids looked really clean which is good) and looked at it and couldn't figure out why, I cycled the suspension thinking maybe it was happening at a specific spot but no luck. Will have to keep an eye on it. Maybe it is the o-ring at the diff entry but it held for over 20 minutes with zero issues.
Tomorrow I will probably fill the rear diff and if I have a chance look at pulling the transfer case
- Remove seats and B pillar cage bolts
- Remove 2 fender bolts at the bottom at the tub
- remove body mount bolts on one side and jack up that side
- cut the small weld locations that the old torque box is attached
- bolt the new torque box using the fender bolts and the cage
- weld in same spots
- put back together
May be the same cost as a used tub but a hell of a lot less work
After seeing Marek's buggy it got me motivated today to jump on the next portion so I got both front and rear drive shaft pulled and the Transfer Case Skid
At Crag during SF my compressor for my lockers would kick in intermittently so I also popped open the diff (fluids looked really clean which is good) and looked at it and couldn't figure out why, I cycled the suspension thinking maybe it was happening at a specific spot but no luck. Will have to keep an eye on it. Maybe it is the o-ring at the diff entry but it held for over 20 minutes with zero issues.
Tomorrow I will probably fill the rear diff and if I have a chance look at pulling the transfer case
Did you soap test your fittings.
Didn't get to the rear diff will deal with it later.
In between rain drops I was able to pull the Novak cable shifter and the transfer case and found that the input shaft on it is the long version while the one I have for the doubler is the short. While trying to figure out why I found that the AX-15 in 1994 and before would use a short shaft which explained Novak's chart which stated that it should be short. But for 95 on they switched to the long shaft while auto transmissions stayed with the short shaft. Looking online I found one guy who actually hooked up a 231 with a short shaft to an ax15 and it worked. Since I have the TC out and it is forcasting rain for most of the week I am pretty sure I am just going to swap the input shafts. It should also make the pulled 231 easier to sell as in theory it should work with automatics and potentially standards if the owner wants to try it.
In between rain drops I was able to pull the Novak cable shifter and the transfer case and found that the input shaft on it is the long version while the one I have for the doubler is the short. While trying to figure out why I found that the AX-15 in 1994 and before would use a short shaft which explained Novak's chart which stated that it should be short. But for 95 on they switched to the long shaft while auto transmissions stayed with the short shaft. Looking online I found one guy who actually hooked up a 231 with a short shaft to an ax15 and it worked. Since I have the TC out and it is forcasting rain for most of the week I am pretty sure I am just going to swap the input shafts. It should also make the pulled 231 easier to sell as in theory it should work with automatics and potentially standards if the owner wants to try it.
Ripped the transfer case apart and got the input shaft out. You can easily see the difference in shaft heights (automatic on the left, standard on the right). Next I have to put the case I pulled out of the jeep back together and put it up for sale. I will be putting the shorter one in which means it could be sold for automatics. Talked to Novak today which has a whole page on the differences and they think the short would work in a standard (they recommend it if their clients aren't sure but I figured since I had it out why not do the swap. Lock ring pliers are the bomb. When I did my slip yoke eliminator what
took me an hour took me only 30 seconds. I had it apart in less than 20 minutes.
took me an hour took me only 30 seconds. I had it apart in less than 20 minutes.
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I was trying to remember if you could pull it out the front?
Nope, you remove the plate in the bottom left of the picture and a lock ring and it drops right down inside so you have to take the whole thing apart.
Well I think I may have to just resort to parting out my old 231 rather than selling it as a whole unit. The difference in input shafts seems to also reflect in the planetary gear. Enough so that you can't swap the input shaft into the planetary gear (it looks like the newer shaft will fit into the old planetary gear but not the other way). The newer planetary gear will fit but it doesn't just drop on. I may take a chance and see if the shorter shaft will work on the AX15 or if not, use the older planetary gear with the newer shaft and part out the 231.
If the shorter shaft will fit then I can just put the 231 back together with the long shaft and sell it like that
If the shorter shaft will fit then I can just put the 231 back together with the long shaft and sell it like that
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Learned a lot about the 231 between what Novak has (which has it all but not in their tech section) and pirate and Jeepforum.
- there are three shaft lengths of 231s involved with the Jeep line, short, medium, long.
- before 1994 the short length was used for the automatics and manual (AX-15)
- after 1994, the 231 converted to the long length for the manuals while the automatics remained at short
Now the other thing that changed was around 1994 the gear cut changed on the ring gear pressed in the case, the planetary gear that runs on the ring gear and the gearing on the input shaft which sits inside the planetary gear. It appears that the newer shaft will fit in the older planetary gear (the opposite is not true) and it has been reported to be noisy which implies there is excessive play between the two. Also the newer planetary gear will fit on the older ring gear but is a tight fit (see the next line why it seemed to be a tight fit.
Also at the same time the size of the bearing shrunk (if you look in the picture above the little landing which the input bearing rests on is taller on the long one. This is because the bearing on the newer model is about half the depth of the of the older model. So when putting the shaft back in it would get a bit in and then stop and I think that was when the landing touched the thicker bearing. I may be able to swap the bearings from each case but I wouldn't feel comfortable selling my old one then
I have put the original short shaft back in the doubler's 231 and will see how much it grabs tomorrow. However I have a strong feeling that it won't at all as I have also put on the flip ring which pushes it back making even less of the input shaft to sit on the transmissions output shaft.
The good news is Novak does carry a old style gear cut long output for thin bearing. Bad news is it is $167 but it is what it is so selling my old 231 with the stock shaft and the SYE should cover the cost.
- there are three shaft lengths of 231s involved with the Jeep line, short, medium, long.
- before 1994 the short length was used for the automatics and manual (AX-15)
- after 1994, the 231 converted to the long length for the manuals while the automatics remained at short
Now the other thing that changed was around 1994 the gear cut changed on the ring gear pressed in the case, the planetary gear that runs on the ring gear and the gearing on the input shaft which sits inside the planetary gear. It appears that the newer shaft will fit in the older planetary gear (the opposite is not true) and it has been reported to be noisy which implies there is excessive play between the two. Also the newer planetary gear will fit on the older ring gear but is a tight fit (see the next line why it seemed to be a tight fit.
Also at the same time the size of the bearing shrunk (if you look in the picture above the little landing which the input bearing rests on is taller on the long one. This is because the bearing on the newer model is about half the depth of the of the older model. So when putting the shaft back in it would get a bit in and then stop and I think that was when the landing touched the thicker bearing. I may be able to swap the bearings from each case but I wouldn't feel comfortable selling my old one then
I have put the original short shaft back in the doubler's 231 and will see how much it grabs tomorrow. However I have a strong feeling that it won't at all as I have also put on the flip ring which pushes it back making even less of the input shaft to sit on the transmissions output shaft.
The good news is Novak does carry a old style gear cut long output for thin bearing. Bad news is it is $167 but it is what it is so selling my old 231 with the stock shaft and the SYE should cover the cost.
It probably won't work for you unless the transfer case was made on or before 1994. Hence this line:
Now the other thing that changed was around 1994 the gear cut changed on the ring gear pressed in the case, the planetary gear that runs on the ring gear and the gearing on the input shaft which sits inside the planetary gear.
So you can't interchange the older shafts with newer gears and vice versa. And the ring gear is pressed in with about 20 tons of force so swapping them is impossible as it would destroy the housing removing them